Posts by drew sagan

17

One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan in

for quite some time i have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the watchtower.

last night while doing some mindless tasks i think that question may have come to me.

the question is: .

drew sagan

But be advised that they see their history as being connected to the biblical history; that they are just a continuation of it in a way. That there always were 'Jehovah's Witnesses' around. So with at least some, you may encounter the argument that biblical history and JW history is part of the same.
Not trying to be difficult here, I just want to prepare you for whatever counter arguments you may meet

Don't worry about being difficult. I'm glad you brought it up

Doesn't the idea that they where divinely appointed in 1919 kind of kill this argument? What would be the point of them being approved and appointed in 1918/1919 if they simply where a continuation of true believrs that stretches back to pentecost?

What reason would Jesus have to inspect and appoint the true believers if they were always there? Their teaching kind of depends upon the idea that there was a break in the chain, at least in the sense of an organization being on earth.

17

One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan in

for quite some time i have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the watchtower.

last night while doing some mindless tasks i think that question may have come to me.

the question is: .

drew sagan

Awakened07, you raise some interesting questions about what the JW responses could be that I'd like to comment on. You said:

Obviously, I wouldn't have been able to show it using only the Bible, so in that sense I would be stumped. You could quote literature that says they only believe the Bible, as you say. But back then, I would probably at least have justified it to myself; that based on what I already believed and had learned, the FDS are the modern day 'chosen people', and as such are those who should interpret the Bible. I would probably have thrown in the passages that say that "it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." (Jer. 10:23) and “no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.” (2Pe. 1:20, 21) After some mental gymnastics, I would conclude that the GB/FDS are needed to understand scripture, and that if they say it is so, it is so.

I think that there needs to be a division drawn between two differant things that are often mixed togeather.

The response you gave I believe would be pretty typicial. After being asked such a question the Witness would have no choice but to begin to talk about how we need somebody to teach us. But I believe that the question I raised actually has little to do with whether or not it is proper for people to always have teachers.

The key I believe is not religoius authority, rather it is Watchtower history as a necessary component to understanding the Bible. Once it is established that this question cannot be answered without refering to Watchtower History, a new line is drawn. No longer can the Witness claim to believe anything but the Bible. There is now a secondary component needed to interpret scripture fully. That compnent is Watchtower history.

A good follow up question would be "is it possible for somebody living today to understand the Bible apart from Watchtower history?" I believe this is a key question. While on the one hand the Watchtower continues to promote the myth that they believe nothing but the bible, they also continue to promote the belief that a full understanding of the Bible can only be reached by having access to their religions history.

If I was talking to a JW I would first ask them if they believe nothing but the Bible. They of course would say yes. They may even bring this point up by themselves if you ask them "what do you believe?". I then would ask them my original question as stated above. I then would try to see if they would accept the proposition that one can only understand the Bible fully if they have Watchtower history to refer to. I then would ask why they falsely stated that they use nothing but the Bible when it is very that they have added an extra component (Watchtower history).

14

New and Curious

by ttw1981 in

jw
friends

i'm trying to read through some posts on this board to see what the central focus is, who comes here, etc.

it looks like many people here are ex-jw's, but are all?

or is it a combination of both?

drew sagan

I made a post today that talks about a question I thought that may help conversations with JWs.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/153494/1.ashx

17

One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan in

for quite some time i have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the watchtower.

last night while doing some mindless tasks i think that question may have come to me.

the question is: .

drew sagan

While these questions are good, most JW's will not bother to tackle them.

I understand your cynicism. There are a good amount of JWs that will never bother to answer any questions. This fact in itself though doesn't stop me continuing to think about better ways to approach them. I personally have had some minor successes in talking with JWs and continue to think about how to be more effective.

59

Do you ever miss it? Ever?

by AK - Jeff in

for me - rarely would be the correct word.

i don't miss the indoctrination.

i don't miss the wasted time in service.

drew sagan

After reading many of the posts here I wanted to make a comment on the conditional friends we all had in the Watcthower.

I just wanted to say that while I do agree that the friends you make in the Watchtower are conditional, I think we can sometimes forget that it is the end product of the Watchtower system that makes them that way. I too was a conditional friend as I'm sure many of the posters on this board were.

I do not look back with the feeling that all the people that I knew in the Watchtower where shallow people only willing to give conditional friendship. Instead I look back knowing that all that can be gained within that system is conditional friends.

I will also say that after is DA'd myself I got a call about one month later from a friend within the JWs. We talked for about five minutes or so. He never mentioned anything about the JWs, just wanted to know how I was. He broke the rules to call me. I know there were many others that wish they could have too. They are trapped, I try not to blame them too much.

17

One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan in

for quite some time i have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the watchtower.

last night while doing some mindless tasks i think that question may have come to me.

the question is: .

drew sagan

For quite some time I have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the Watchtower.

Last night while doing some mindless tasks I think that question may have come to me. The question is:

Using the Bible alone, prove that in 1919 Jesus Christ chose the Watchtower Society to be the cornerstone used restore true worship

Of course the JWs biggest objection to this question is that it involves prophecy, something that according to their understanding "you can only understand after it happens".

But this is why I like to focus on 1919 rather than 1914. While the Watchtower has provided all kinds of (bad) information to support their 1914 doctrine, very little effort has been put into understanding how one gets from 1914 to 1919. The following quote shows some of their "reasoning" on this subject:

*** re chap. 6 p. 32 Unlocking a Sacred Secret ***

Jesus was baptized and anointed as King-Designate at the Jordan River about October 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in 33 C.E., he came to Jerusalem’s temple and threw out those who were making it a cave of robbers. There appears to be a parallel to this in the three-and-a-half-year period from Jesus’ enthronement in the heavens in October 1914 until his coming to inspect professed Christians as judgment began with the house of God. (Matthew 21:12, 13; 1 Peter 4:17) Early in 1918 the Kingdom activity of Jehovah’s people met with great opposition. It was a time of testing earth wide, and fearful ones were sifted out. In May 1918 Christendom’s clergy instigated the imprisonment of officials of the Watch Tower Society, but nine months later these were released. Later, the false charges against them were dropped. From 1919 the organization of God’s people, tried and refined, moved zealously forward to proclaim Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus as the hope for mankind.—Malachi 3:1-3.

As Jesus began his inspection in 1918, the clergy of Christendom no doubt received an adverse judgment. Not only had they raised up persecution against God’s people but they had also incurred heavy bloodguilt by supporting the contending nations during the first world war. (Revelation 18:21, 24) Those clergymen then placed their hope in the man-made League of Nations. Along with the entire world empire of false religion, Christendom had fallen completely from God’s favor by 1919. -Bold Added

They take the three and a half years of Jesus ministry and use that to go from 1914 to 1918! The phrase "There appears to be a parallel" is used, but nothing is provided to describe how this is.

I have long thought that this has to be one of their most strained and down right embarrassing teachings. It shows how desperate they are to make the world revolve around their religion.

For me, the next time I see a JW I think I'm going to give them this challenge. Putting in the form of a challenge makes it work the best IMO. They love to say that they can answer any question using "the Bible alone". I think such a method could really great.

8

JW Fastest Growing Religion...In N. America???

by owenfieldreams in

jw
friends

wow....didn't see this coming.

.

http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?newsid=14974.

drew sagan

Not only are the numbers published by the Watchtower dubious, they do not accurately reflect the complex trends of religious growth.

One key is to follow the large amounts of people who identify themselves as born again Christians, or "evangelicals". This movement completely dwarfs anything going on within the Watchtower. But it cannot be tracked by looking at the stats of one denomination. It is bigger than one denomination.

In the case of this article, I think it really comes down to how you define "faith". And I still would also agree with the previous poster that the published numbers from the Watchtower cannot be trusted. They have made a number of changes the past 5 years or so that helps them reach bigger numbers on paper, while there is no real tangible change (like letting old people turn in 15 minutes of time so they can remain a publisher). Not that doing such a thing is bad on its own (I would argue that its much better for them to count this way). Problem is that when you compare the current stats after such changes have taken place to their past stats you have no way of knowing the curve. Are they really growing? Or are they simply doing a better job counting? Or is it a little of both? We really don't know.

24

To Cross Or Not to Cross you be the judge!

by Hope4Others in

as a solar-phallic symbol, i have no problems with it at all.

it symbolizes generation and regeneration... birth, life, death, rebirth... .

i have observed that many people wear crosses that have no religious identity.

drew sagan

The Watchtowers position on the cross has much less to do with accurate historical scholarship and everything to do with creating talking points.

I believe it was Rutherford who first introduced this. He plan was simple, create as many reasons as he possibly could to make his religion different from the rest. Everything in mainstream Christianity was put on a list and he made sure to do the opposite. All the while creating stories about how miraculous events followed him everywhere he went.

26

Giving Apostates a nasty name..............Brenda Lee

by ScoobySnax in

jw
friends

was round my mates last night and was surfing utube, what the hell was that brenda lee thinking of crashing the memorial and chewing gum like a demented cow.

it was painful to watch.

my mate, a never witness was disgusted that someone could show so musch disrespect whatever your viewpoint.

drew sagan

She is one in a long line of people that leave the JWs but keep that high and mighty attitude.

59

Do you ever miss it? Ever?

by AK - Jeff in

for me - rarely would be the correct word.

i don't miss the indoctrination.

i don't miss the wasted time in service.

drew sagan

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most (if not all) people who joined the religion by choice probably do look back and miss certain aspects of it. I know I have. Those who where raised in it can have a very different experience.

In reference to myself (who joined by choice) I can only say that every time I look back and miss it I'm never really thinking of the religion per se, but rather the idealized view I had of the group before I joined. Once I remember how the ideals put forth by the Watchtower can never really be honestly achieved the feeling begins to pass.